OK, have pulled together a good range of mics thanks largely to the knowledge of this board --thanks!

Now, trying to figure out how to get multiple mic channels into the computer -- looking for 8 channels range (small band, lots of mics on drums, vocals, guitar cabs)

Picked up an old Soundcraft 200B cheap, a beast with lots of channels working, but does this have to "sum" to 2 channels to go out anywhere? really want to get all the channels into the computer separately for tracking. PC laptop.

Have a Focusrite Saffire LE, which has worked well, but only 2 mic channels.

All I really want to do is add more mic inputs, with quality a/d conversion; what is the most cost-effective way to do this?

Random thoughts I've had:

1. Saffire Pro 10, but have heard this is very buggy. Got the LE working well, so some confidence in the brand; had also tried the Firebox, but just couldn't get that working well, so leery of Presonus, which I know is a generally popular choice in budget range.

2. Echo AudioFire4, daisychaining to add mic inputs, seems to to be a quality step-up from Saffire, but an expensive route to add mics?

3. Tascam 1624, USB 2.0; mixed reviews on how well USB2.0 works.

I'm looking for answers in the hundreds, not thousands (have seen RME as a strong answer, but can't write that check).

My apologies for the ignorance shown above; any thoughts appreciated, as I have driven my own thinking into an endless loop.

What's the laptop? What's the FW chipset? This stuff matters, as most PC laptops for the mass market have chipsets that don't play that well for audio. Even getting an express-card-to-FW port with the preferred TI chipset won't fix the bottle-neck that's typical. (I believe the controller for the FW and the card slot are the same.) Generally you have to limp along with higher buffers, so the advantage over USB2 is unclear. Getting the TI chipset going will get the computer playing nice with some devices, but the data bottleneck is still an issue.

Mind you, if there aren't dropouts, latency is only a problem for overdubbing, assuming there's no work-around available, like monitoring the playback along with the live tracks before the live tracks go to the DAW, or if there is a zero-latency mixer facility for the interface.

Does the 200B have channel outs or direct outs? Failing that, insert points? You can get your individual channels through those connections. If not, it may be possible to have them added by modification.

Bear

Thanks for the response.

Chipset is probably an issue. It's an HP Laptop, T1350 chip, 1.86 Ghz; 1 G ram. I knew enough to want firewire, but not that TI or types mattered -- all the specs say is OHCI compliant. Note: will need a Mac in the Fall, so if it is a better answer to plan toward that ... live and learn.

Here's pics of the 200B (minus the middle section; it's eight channels, then the mastering section on mine) if it helps:



Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

My skim of the manual suggests no direct outs.

The FW chipset issue has become an issue even for Macbooks and Macbook Pro's lately. It's kind of embarrassing when it creates problems with the Apogee Duet and Ensemble, which are designed to perfectly integrate into a Mac/Logic system. So do your homework when you buy. Limping along, you can probably get by with a TI chipset FW card in the card slot. If you get a MacBook Pro with the card slot, you can later use the card to add a second FW bus, a handy thing.

Which interface is a pretty open question. Quality of conversion and stability are essential factors, but you might also need some features like mic pres or zero-latency monitoring. Check forums for your preferred DAW software to look into compatibility issues--some combos play better than others. Of the stuff you've mentioned, I've not yet seen anyone comment on the Tascam, and of the Echo Audiofire stuff, the 8 and 12 reputedly have better conversion than the 2 and 4.

Bear

How stupid would it be to send a channel to each of the 4 aux channels, and then the line out from each aux channel to an interface unit? Idea is I would pick up 4 mic channels this way.

Maybe I can ask my general question a different way: starting from scratch, how do people here get drum tracks (up to 8 channels) into their daws, in the budget to mid-price range?

RME Multiface is a great budget unit and it delivers a great sound, eight channels in eight channels out.
i do not know enough about computers to know what card you would need but i am sure they make one for a laptop. ( ? )
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Multiface2/

RME is solid kit, but to run that on a pcmcia setup will add about $400, and the alternate Fireface400 FW unit comes in nearly in the same price range. I am hearing "can we keep it under $500?" implied in the question.



The DAW thing is new to me and I'm not in with both feet yet, and I don't record live drum kits, so bring your shaker of salt along. If I was starting from rock bottom with no gear, I might look into a smaller Mackie Onyx mixer with one of the optional firewire cards. I understand Warren/Warhead has used that sort of rig for tracking drums, and the audio I've heard him do with them certainly didn't suck. But the 200B is on the table, so it would seem somewhat redundant. If the mixer had viable channel outs, I'd think about the Echo Audiofire interfaces in the 12 channel model to max I/O and not dilly-dally with extra preamps. Most other interfaces I know about in the range have extra, which may or may not be useful. Why I'd look at the Echo is lots of channels of good sounding conversion to get the most use out of the outboard mixer.

The absurdity of running through the auxes can be tested with the Focusrite interface you've already got, BTW. If it sounds okay to you, it's okay until it stops sounding okay if you get my drift. I'd do a little homework on mod potential for that board to maximize recording functionality--it was originally a live-sound board, but I'm sure people have tricked them out for the studio.

Bear

The Presonus Fire Studio certainly contains eight preamps and eight channels of I/O through firewire.

These replies have helped, as much in pointing out blind alleys as paths to answers.

As I have explored further, I came across sound samples at the Tascam user site that demonstrated the difference between budget and nice pres (sm57/les paul/range of pres up to GR). So finally understand there are no magic answers in the price range I indicated (Bear hit the nail on the head on budget)

One blind alley: the 200B does not seem worth trying to choose other equipment around; I'll put it in a corner, maybe figure out a use once I know what I'm doing, maybe donate it to a worthy cause ...

Another blind alley: thinking that my current PC can take me much further up the sound quality path. So I'm going to keep it modest for now: with the firewire limitations of my chip, I've decided to experiment with USB2.0 -- just "won" (I love ebay's marketing) a Tascam US1641 (8 mics) for $300 or so; this will let me explore multi-channel mysteries, and also appreciate better stuff when I am more worthy.

The good news is longer term: going to be forced to buy a Mac in the Fall (academic pursuits), and can plan a clean start from that platform. It's nice to have aspirations

On the aspirations front, I'm thinking Bear's suggestion of the Echo Audiofire12 would be a quality base for later pre channel add-ons? I don't see myself ever stepping up to the Apogee spend level.

On pres, Grace 101, GR single have stood out; also saw a True single that looked impressive, if anyone has an opinion on that. My focus is on the 1 channels, because I think could write checks in the hundreds at a pop when life is good from time to time, but never see myself being able to chunk down in the k+ range all at once.

Any alternative thoughts on building from a Mac platform welcome; although this is essentially a circles in the sky exercise now, as spending would be years away. (But funny how the lust becomes consuming!)

If you're dropping the idea of using the Soundcraft, I would go back to Ozraves' suggestion of looking at the Presonus Firestudio, or any of their firewire products. The package might not have the best of everything, but what it has does not suck and all the features will be helpful to you in starting out and all of it is sufficient to work with, including the pres. When you add pres, you can use line-ins. If you get better converters, you can plug them into the interface.

I suggested the Audiofire 12 on the notion that you would already be using outboard pres from the Soundcraft. If budget is a concern, it'll be an issue that you have to provide them.

Bear

Thanks. But for current system, I tried Firebox, so know Presonus firewire just isn't working with my system (for whatever reason, the Saffire is working).

But looking ahead to Mac life, I wouldn't be spooked by firewire, making sure I understand the FW chipsets I buy! But I had thought Echo might offer clearly stronger converters over FS? Want to avoid "buy twice" as I (slowly) build a system over the long haul as a home studio. My thinking has shifted from trying to get it all in one package on a budget, to adding a quality piece at a time as life allows.

My goal then is: an interface offering plenty of connectivity and adda converters strong enough to support quality pres down the road. Echo seems to do this, but am I missing stronger choices in the sub-$1,000 range?

Just a couple of observations, perhaps a suggestion or two...

1. As much as I try not to like them, Presonus makes quality stuff, and their bang for the buck is off the charts. Honestly, you are the 1st person I've heard mention ANY driver issues with Presonus in years, Mac or PC.

2. As with any FW device, there are good ones and not-so-good ones. Make sure your computer's FW card is Texas Instruments equipped, and try to make sure that your audio and drives are not on the same FW bus.

3. As for ditching your board - don't even think it...the 200B is a IMO a dragon slayer. Run an ITB mix, then run a mix thru the 200B, and tell me which one sounds like a real production. If you REALLY must donate it to a non-profit agency, let me know, as I work with several, and we'll be more than happy to take it off your hands.

i must agree!
Presonus would be one of those rare companies, making more affordable gear, gear i feel can recommend, with out hesitation, or concern.

Wow. To quote from a favorite, "once was blind, now I see." I was so wedded to ITB from habit of using Saffire for solo stuff, that I never thought of actually
using the 200B as it was intended! (I've obviously checked pride at the door in posting at this site)

At a minimum, it will be a ton of fun and great learning to see how mixes compare. Anyone have tech suggestions in the Chicago area for maintenance/potential mods? (Still on the fence on whether I should pump money into "old iron")

If the 200B does become a dustcatcher for me in the end, very happy to donate it to a good cause here at mojo -- this site has been a huge help to me in exploring audio.

I didn't mean to take shots at Presonus, the issue is clearly in my FW chipset, kinda irritating because I bought the HP Pavilion at the time on recommendations (not from this site) that it was a good platform for music recording. On boards, I've seen high marks for FS and lots of commentary that Eureka is huge bang for the buck?

i think the 200Bs are great consoles, i would not hesitate to use one.

On the USB2.0 front, I have the Tascam US-1641 in the door and can report it runs smoothly on FL Studio; set-up took a matter of minutes, error free with 4 simultaneous tracks (drumsx4) (vocals+bass+guitardi+piano) so far. No drops or pops at all. This is running like a breeze on the same laptop PC that I had lots of problems getting FW units working on.

I won't get into trying to grade sound quality (because I can't without hi-end pieces to compare against), but am very happy with it as a usable piece that sounds nice, not tinny or obviously weak; not disappointed at all with the sound quality.

So ... for those with FW problems (as I ran into), my main comment is that USB2.0 is worth taking a close look at.

Glad to see things are working out to your satisfaction....couple more observations/suggestions, and then I shall leave you to your lot.

1. FW is an accepted platform for almost all audio applications, even with packet issues, finicky chipsets, and so on....For reasons unknown to me, 1394b (FW 800) never really seemed to catch on, perhaps because FW remains so stable.

2. I would be pretty hesitant to rely on USB2 for more than 8 tracks at one time for getting in and out...seems to work well for actually writing to disc (I've been using either USB2 or internal frives for years, 24/48K, up to 16 at a shot....no problems)...just make sure to power down the USB drives and let their power supplies cool off every day, or you'll have a real mess...

3. USB3 is right around the corner...USB2 times 10 in speed, capacity, and reliability....FW will be dead and gone in a few years. http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9780794-7.html

Send me your Soundcraft board - I'll pay shipping and won't charge you anything to get that junk out of your space.