Every day I write and record a new song during my recording session. It's a good habit, exactly like brushing my teeth and doing push-ups. Unfortunately, it's the very worst time for me to do it because I've trained myself not to think at this time. I'm "real gone" as Elvis called it, or what Jeff Beck calls "in a trance". Sometimes I have some lyrics written beforehand, but usually I have to think (!) of a topic, lyrics, and rhymes. I sing it and accompany myself on electric guitar (Fender Strat), whammy bar guitar (Kramer), lapsteel (Supro), and 12 string acoustic (Ovation). Then I play and record my sitar, but I never sing because the sitar is overwhelmingly meditative and spiritual for me. I play keyboards at a separate time, but rarely sing.

My rock opera on the 4th dimension (time) consists of dozens of songs that required much research. The project was started shortly after I ended my career as a non-fiction writer/researcher. I extrapolated original ideas from my research, such as time is a product of entropy. It's not a romantic concept, you can't dance to it, but it does advance the plot. Fortunately, my very best songs with great commercial potential are also in my opera.

To record the songs I would start with a scratch vocal and metronome track. Next I would do the drums, usually sequenced to a Korg S3 drum machine with SMPTE. Then I would record the bass, always DI. Next came my electric guitar track, which usually dominates the song. Finally I would sing the song. Often the song would require other instruments on more tracks, and I'm crazy about sound effects when they're appropriate.

Sometimes I am truly inspired to write a song. Last year I woke up with the idea of "Toorotten", about Toorotten, Rottentario, Canacaca. I wrote the song, recorded the vocals, and mixed it to an abandoned music project. It was on the internet around the world by 11 am the same day! It is my very worst song, created strictly for personal psychological reasons, but a friend told me it is his favorite song of mine--so what do I know?

The best thing about songwriting is it's the only medium left where the writer has complete freedom of expression. Everywhere else the writer is edited, censored, re-written, rejected, muzzled, punished, and sometimes imprisoned or murdered. The worst thing about songwriting is the necessity or convention of rhymes. They are very confining and usually the most difficult part of songwriting. A few of my intellectual songs don't rhyme, but good rhymes are generally essential. Many songs are poetic, but some songwriters (e.g. Frank Zappa) dislike poetry.

We are very fortunate and blessed to be able to write and record whatever we wish and distribute our songs on the internet and elsewhere.

Paul Simon supposedly approaches songwriting the same way Ernest Hemingway approached writing. He got legal pads. He set aside time each morning to write. He was workmanlike.

I like writing when I want to write. Sometimes, it's on the way to the airport. Sometimes, I stay up to late and the brain starts kicking out music and lyrics. I hardly write instrumental music.

I go thru spurts...sometimes I'll get 3-4 compositions done in one day...sometimes I go 3-4 years without writing anything more complicated than my name.

Guitar hooks though come to me almost naturally....perhaps the mechanisms are the same, in that there needs to be some sort of pyscho-emotional trigger....

Hell I don't know.

i go through spurts of writing that my last six moths, a year, or a few days.

The most famous spurt of all was probably Johnny Cash. That dude had a spurt of creativity where he wrote like a mad man early in his career.

i have always loved Johnny Cash!

PLAGIARISM?

The Rolling Stones have said they often start their recording sessions by singing some of their favorite hit songs by other artists. Out of this comes original Rolling Stones tunes.

I always start my recording session by playing, singing, and recording 10 hit pop songs from my huge library of sheet music. It's my very favorite thing in life. But I don't think the songs influence my songwriting, except to strengthen my pop aesthetic and educate me about what makes a hit song. However, about 20 years ago I wrote a song that I realized the next day was "Cat People" by David Bowie and Giorgio Moroder. Then 10 summers ago, during a dismal period in my life, I wrote only one song, a tune about loneliness. Six months later I came across "Who Can I Turn To?" by Leslie Bricusse and Anthony Newley in a Broadway song book. It was the origin of my song, but I was able to change mine enough to make it original.

My only recorded song that is somewhat musically derivative is "Wasteland Blues". The guitar riffs are too much like Jimi Hendrix, but not a rip-off. It's really comparable to "Sunshine of Your Love" by Jack Bruce, Eric Clapton and poet Pete Brown--inspired and written as a tribute to Jimi Hendrix (who often performed the song). But my imitation Hendrix was unconscious, not deliberate, something I didn't notice for years.

Historically, "Surfin' USA" by Brian Wilson is interesting because when Chuck Berry (in jail) heard it he knew it was his "Sweet Little Sixteen". He took legal action and now has co-writing credit for the lucrative song. "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison is derived from "He's So Fine" by Ronald Mack, although Harrison claimed it was inspired by "Oh Happy Day". It's a messy legal story, but Harrison lost and eventually bought the rights to "He's So Fine". Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" (the very last song the band played live) is mostly derived from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love". Dixon used the settlement money he obtained from legal action to set up a program for providing musical instruments to school children.

Sometimes I notice unusual phrases in songs that I recognize were obviously appropriated from other songs. The Beatles and Bob Marley are guilty of this. When I used to listen to the radio I would often hear "echoes" of monster hit songs in other songs. It was obviously deliberate, just cashing in on a great song the public couldn't get enough of. There are only a few notes, so musical similarities are inevitable. But English has more words by far than any other language. No other language has even half as many words, so there is no excuse for deliberately plagiarizing lyrics. Topics and ideas are usually fair game. But I always cringe when I hear Eric Burdon sing "I was so much older then" in "When I Was Young" (E.Burdon/J.Weider/V.Briggs/D.J.McCulloch/B.A.Jenkins). It's definitely a rip-off of Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages": "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now."

uh....OK....

Who said anything about plaigerism? Interesting topic though...At least I read somewhere it was interesting

To answer your question, these 4 guys said something about plagiarism:

Howard Dietz: "Composers shouldn't think too much--it interferes with their plagiarism."

Igor Stravinsky: "A good composer does not imitate. He steals."

Wilson Mizner: "If you copy from one author, it's plagiarism. If you copy from two, it's research."

Casey Kasem: "This is bullshit. Nobody cares. These guys are from England and who gives a shit?"
(Mr. Kasem was sued for recording a parody of a U2 song)

I know that the Flaming Lips got accused of plagiarizing Cat Stevens. I've listened t both songs. I just don't get it. They were threatened with legal action and then gave up some royalties to Cat Stevens.

The Rolling Stones approach is not a bad one. Most everyone does that if not so blatantly. Think about how many English recording artists from the 1960s and 1970s love Howlin' Wolf.

That's what you get for listening to the Flaming Lips...I guess its better than going to one of their live shows, though

I just got confused...I didn't make the connection between songwriting and plagerism....but there again, I am pretty naive.

Ken...

I really like the Flaming Lips "Yoshimi" album. The "Soft Bulletin" is also a favorite. I am not a huge fan of "Mystics." The prior stuff was of a sort that was more quirky than anything else. There was a band here that did that thing better in my opinion called Barnyard Slut. If anyone digs the pre "Soft Bulletin" Flaming Lips then they are encouraged to try a listed of Barnyard Slut's "Space Age Motel."

QUOTES FROM THE BEST SONGWRITERS:

Irving Berlin: "Listen kid, take my advice, never hate a song that has sold half a million copies."

George Gershwin: "True music must repeat the thought and inspirations of the people and the time...Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

Cole Porter: "My sole inspiration is a telephone call from a director."

Stephen Sondheim: "Clever rhyming is easy, anybody can do it...Oscar Hammerstein II taught me that a song should be like a little one-act play, with an exposition, a development and a conclusion; at the end of the song the character should have moved to a different position...Cole Porter wrote a valid but entirely different kind of song, in which you take a particular idea and play with it and develop it in terms of cleverness, wit, intellectual or romantic intensity."

Burt Bacharach: "Music breeds its own inspiration. You can only do it by doing it. You may not feel like it, but you push yourself. It’s a work process. Or just improvise. Something will come."

Leonard Cohen: "I wish I were one of those people who wrote songs quickly. But I’m not. So it takes me a great deal of time to find out what the song is. I am working most of the time."

Neil Diamond: "Performing is the easiest part of what I do, and songwriting is the hardest."

Hank Williams: "If a song can't be written in 20 minutes, it ain't worth writing.”

Donovan: "With songwriting, it all comes out in one flash. Then you work it, then you craft it."

Joan Baez: "People don’t want to hear anything that they don’t want to hear... You have to package it in a certain way so that it can break through the wall people put up."

Willie Dixon: "People have been brainwashed into believing that it’s got to be down or it wouldn’t be blues. But it’s not so. It’s got to be a fact or it wouldn’t be blues."

John Lennon: "I'd spent five hours that morning trying to write a song that was meaningful and good, and I finally gave up and lay down. Then, "Nowhere Man" came, words and music, the whole damn thing, as I lay down...Song writing is about getting the demon out of me. It's like being possessed. You try to go to sleep, but the song won't let you. So you have to get up and make it into something, and then you're allowed sleep. "

Paul McCartney: "Somebody said to me, But the Beatles were anti-materialistic. That's a huge myth. John and I literally used to sit down and say, Now, let's write a swimming pool."

James Brown: "I've outdone anyone you can name - Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Strauss. Irving Berlin, he wrote 1,001 tunes. I wrote 5,500."

Laura Nyro: "There are no limitations with a song. To me a song is a little piece of art. It can be whatever you like it to be. You can write the simplest song, and that’s lovely, or you can just write a song that is abstract art."

Elton John: "The great thing about rock and roll is that someone like me can be a star...I'm the Connie Francis of rock 'n' roll...Record companies, believe me, no matter what record company you're with, they're going to try to hype you, because, really, all record companies are interested in is making money...Who really needs a new album from me?"

Pete Seeger: "I write a song because I want to. I think the moment you start writing it to make money, you’re starting to kill yourself artistically."

Paul Simon: "It’s very helpful to start with something that’s true. If you start with something that’s false, you’re always covering your tracks. Something simple and true, that has a lot of possibilities, is a nice way to begin."

Peter Townshend: "What I took back, because of my exposure to the Jewish music of the 30s and the 40s in my upbringing with my father, was that kind of theatrical songwriting. It was always a part of my character. This desire to make people laugh."

Brian Wilson: "No masterpiece ever came overnight. A person’s masterpiece is something that you nurture along."

Carole King: "I'm a songwriter first...In my career I have never felt that my being a woman was an obstacle or an advantage. I guess I've been oblivious...Sensitive, humbug. Everybody thinks I'm sensitive...There is a downside to having one of the biggest-selling albums ever."

Neil Young: "I don’t force it. If you don’t have an idea and you don’t hear anything going over and over in your head, don’t sit down and try to write a song. You know, go mow the lawn."

Joni Mitchell: "You could write a song about some kind of emotional problem you are having, but it would not be a good song, in my eyes, until it went through a period of sensitivity to a moment of clarity. Without that moment of clarity to contribute to the song, it's just complaining...I can't remember anything I ever wrote...Not to dismiss Gershwin, but Gershwin is the chip; Ellington was the block."

Frank Zappa: "All the good music has already been written by people with wigs and stuff...Basically what people want to hear is: I love you, you love me, the leaves turn brown, they fell off the trees, the wind is blowing, it got cold, you went away, my heart broke, you came back, and my heart was okay."

Bono: "I have never tried to write this thing called a song that's played on radios all around the world, that window-cleaners hum, that people listen to in traffic jams. I was never interested in song: U2 came about through a sound."

Sting: "Songwriting is a kind of therapy for both the writer and the listener if you choose to use it that way. When you see that stuff help other people that’s great and wonderful confirmation that you’re doing the right thing.”

Bruce Springsteen: "I was always concerned with writing to my age at a particular moment. That was the way I would keep faith with the audience that supported me as I went along...I'm a synthesist. I'm always making music. And I make a lot of different kinds of music all the time. Some of it gets finished and some of it doesn't...The best music is essentially there to provide you something to face the world with."

Jim Morrison: “Listen, real poetry doesn’t say anything; it just ticks off the possibilities. Opens all doors. You can walk through any one that suits you...I believe in a long, prolonged, derangement of the senses in order to obtain the unknown...I like any reaction I can get with my music. Just anything to get people to think."

Mick Jagger: "A lot of times songs are very much of a moment, that you just encapsulate. They come to you, you write them, you feel good that day, or bad that day."

Jimi Hendrix: "Imagination is the key to my lyrics. The rest is painted with a little science fiction...All I'm writing is just what I feel, that's all. I just keep it almost naked. And probably the words are so bland."

Bob Dylan: "My best songs were written very quickly. Just about as much time as it takes to write it down is about as long as it takes to write it...In writing songs I've learned as much from Cezanne as I have from Woody Guthrie."

Chuck Berry: "For many years I've been reluctant to make new songs. There has been a great laziness in my soul...All those m- words and f- words, don't blame me for that. I'd rather hear Tommy Dorsey or Artie Shaw any day...Look, I ain't no big shit, all right? My music, it is very simple stuff. I told you all this before. I wanted to play blues. But I wasn't blue enough. I wasn't like Muddy Waters...I was in Australia, and I found out they wouldn't even let a black man become a citizen there. That's why I wrote that song. You know 'Back in the USA,' don't you?"

how did this topic of plagerism even come up? Why did it come up? LWS, have you been a victim of someone taking your music and using it as their own?

Wireline: I don't understand the intent of your question. It's obvious that I posted information about plagiarism because it is a major problem associated with songwriting. I don't know if I've been a victim, however my concept for 2 songs on the internet was ripped off by other "artists". But it's irrelevant.

Man, you really need to relax...I asked a simple question as to how we evolved from songwriting motivation and methodology to plagerism - no where did I question your motivations or legitimacy. I think of it as the art of conversation.

I am not interested in analysing you or anyone else...I just asked a question....

I don't delete anything unless it is an attack on a person, or otherwise violates the normal terms of use..what you choose to do is your business - I am just here to keep conversations going and to help keep the peace.


If you think my asking questions and continuing peaceful conservatons are out of line, please refer your complaint to the site ownership....

I saw the thread title and then...um...hmmm.

The words get stuck in my head and put guitar to them. Or, I have a melody I like and put words to it. Either way, when drinking with my friends...ok..."at band practice" the others will find parts to go with what I have, and a song will evovle from there.

It's not that simple, but it's pretty close to how it happens.

To say I have not been influenced by covers I have learned, few, or heard, many, would be a lie. I don't see not being influenced by music I have enjoyed in some capacity.

do any of y'all keep a pad and paper really handy, even colse to the bedside table? I've done that...not just for songs, but for those rambling thoughts that can sometime wake you up....having the means to write them down immediately can capture a lot of those thoughts (which often can become songs)...or if nothing else can turn into some very amusing readings.

You know that's one idea I never followed through on. When I was younger I would keep notebooks though.

For years I have thought of keeping a mini recorder of some sort in the car, but never seemed to get to it.

I must admit also that I am far less actively writing songs. I really need to kick myself in the ass. Gonna go look at hard drived today, I may have to swing over to the recorders and see what is available. There was a discussion about this at teh Jam Rooms last year. When I told Warren I was on my my way to get on but got sidetracked and bought a fishing rod instead, he thought that was priceless.

In my early 20's I feel I was more "prolific". I would have new songs at the drop of a hat. Never play them out more than twice. Those days are gone. This thread has motivated me to try to accomplish more.

Thanks for getting me thinking.

What, like that Seinfeld episode with him writing down something in his sleep that he's at a loss to figure out what it says, and it's just an unfunny line from a late movie on TV?

But I should do that more. Lyrics have been occurring to me at random points lately, and they aren't sticking. There's a school of thought that it's not any good if you can't remember it, but I think that lyric writing is a craft and the lyrics don't stick until they've been worked on enough to really work.

Bear

this...is what I'm saying, my friend

i have note books all over the place.
filled with ideas for songs as well as a multitude of everything else under the sun.
lyrical thoughts, product ideas, phone numbers ( with no names? ), and ramblings from some unknown person or persons?

I will write when the idea hits me in the case of my own music. Some times it's just a melody. I immediatly take manuscript and write the melody. Then I let it stew. Take it to wherever it goes when the phrases come. It's not always lyric based writing. Most of the time it is instrumental based writing. And in most cases, the piano is my prime tool for working it all out and is usually the prime reference track when it comes time to record. All arranging is built from that.