As a middle aged recording enthusiast I became familiar with the MD 441 at the movies, they were part of the landscape -- I'm fairly certain the mic was used in The Last Waltz (The Band) on at least a couple of the singers -- and of course there's Fleetwood Mac.

So if I want to buy a pair of them new, pristine, never before breathed into (or slobbered or gobbed into in the manner of say Janice Joplin)...the street price is $660 to 700 US -- or about 1400 to 1500 the pair.

Has anyone tried the cheaper vocal mics -- the MD431? And if so, has there been any trickle down of the good qualities from 441 to 431?

The application I will use them for are vocals and guitar -- sometimes close-miked, other times about 8 inches to a foot away from the mics -- as in a stereo rail setup.

By the way the selling price for a pair of MD431 is about $800 (2 times 400), and as the internet chatter (informed discussion) goes, they say that the 441 is basically hand assembled by an old hippie babe whereas the 431 is put together (by robots) or the latest techniques.

No idea...haven't not heard/used the 431...have used the 441, and am convinved it is one of the best, if not THE standard, of dynamic mics....sounds great on most things....

If you get hold of one, let us know how it works out....if it sucks, send it to me and I'll pay postage!

Wire. I believe you about those 441s -- even as a mass-produced and twenty year old product they still fetch artisanal prices.

The 441 is likely the apex of dynamic mic design. Not many people are really trying to do an absolute world-class mic in a dynamic anymore (apart from ribbons), though some useful stuff has come through in recent years.

The 431--it's an old one, but I don't know much about it. Someone on another forum recently said it sounds like the 441 set for the "Speech" roll-off, so with bass rolled off. Don't know if that's right. Sennheiser would probably point you to the 421 as a budget 441, though I'm sure someone is going to cry foul on that, especially given some opinions that Sennheiser messed up a good thing with the 421 Mk. II.

An alternate very-well-behaved hypercardioid dynamic that might be cheaper in matched pairs is the Beyer M-201. It's a pretty dang good all-arounder, though not quite up to the 441. People love them on snare for condensor-like realism that stands up to abuse. I have the omni equivalent, the M-101, and it is very nice, but in a way that evades description--I think it does something to color the source, but it sounds so natural that I have a hard time telling what coloration it may be adding. (The M-101 also seems to have much more bandwidth than the 635a.)

Bear

Sounds like the sonic performance makes the 441 a worthwhile investment, even at brand new prices. My cognitive dissonance is that I could get a pair of condensers for roughly the same coin, plus or minus some coin...say AKG 414s, or even a pair of Neumann vocal mics.

Also the microphone clip for the 441 looks a little fragile in relation to the tried and true Shure mic clip.

To me the fundamental problem is cost vs benefit....

441s cost way big bucks, and if you smack someone with them (only those who deserve it, of course) then you creased a big buck mic...smack someone with an SM7 or RE20, the damage to the mic is minimal...

Wait...whAt DID I just say?

The way I see it, a new MD441 costs seven MPU (microphone purchasing units), the value of a single mic purchasing unit (MPU) equal to the cost of a new SM57.

I need to think through the implications, but if it means I can justify buying more mics, then you are my new guru.

Bear

In Canada, an MD421 is about 4 MPUs -- basically his and her 57s or 58s close-miking voice and guitar. I'm almost talking myself into getting a six-pack of Shure dynamics.

http://www.economik.com/index.php?pr=77&curr=cad


What I'm segue-waying into

I saw a couple of DVD concert recordings: the first was various artists doing the songs of Leonard Cohen, and the second, a performance by Meatloaf in Melbourne Aus -- in both concerts the stage was populated only with Shure SM58 or the wireless version of the same. Maybe there is an obsessive compulsive side to going to all these forums to lust over microphones...or it's one of the seven deadly sins.

okay i reserve the right to deny, or admit say this, i can do a SM57 as a MPU.
but, one MPU, dose not necessarily equate to the same (or for that matter any ), degree of quality?
or dose it?
HHMM

I think the MPU theory is fine in most cases, but....quality increases exponentially with each MPU most of the time when dealing with condensor mics, but with any dynamics or other passive mics, is a logorythmic increase....a dynamic costing 5 MPU is 5 times better than a dynamic costing 1 MPU...

BUT a condensor costing 5 MPU is 25 times better than a condensor costing 1 MPU...usually, unless its purchased on Saturday with a full moon.

Here ya go Pan:

Ah yes, the MPU is only a measure of a microphone's cost relative to an industry standard item.

What is the best way to state sound quality numerically? One way is to assign the number 1.0 to the top sounding microphone in a category. Would that be the md441 -- and then rate the other contenders.

Or else how about a second way -- it's more square, as in relating a kilogram of water to a liter of water. You assign a 1.0 to the cost of a Shure SM58 and set its quality at 1.0, not number 1 (as in the top of the heap) but some number as to indicate it's good enough for stage use, by artists like Bono or Meat Loaf. If ever you discover a better mike you just calculate the cost difference, and judge the sound -- is there an objective way to to measure this?

LOL
okay let me see if i got this.
so, in regards to ( most ), condenser mics, cost has to exponentially increases, at a higher rate then value, in regards to quality.
so, let say 1 MPU ( for the sake of conversation ), is equal to $100.00, at this, each MPU would double with each additional MPU, in regards to a value to cost ratio.
so, an example of cost would be,
1 = $100.00
2 = $200.00
3 =$400.00
5 =$800.00
6 =$1600.00

at this rate, a $1600.00 condenser mic, would only be worth the quality of 6 MPUs, but in regards to dynamic mics, the MPUs would retain a value of the give example ( $100.00 per MPU ), and simply accumulate.

All of this discussion is meant to be exploratory, open ended, with an idea that there's no right and wrong.

But I would assert the money is calculated objectively and with algorithm that produces consistent results. Thus a $1600 microphone willl have an MPU of 16 assuming our standard mic is $100.

Now the quality need its own measure; call it a Standard Quality Unit (SQU (not to be confused with the SKU or stock keeping unit)). We'll set it at 1.0 for a Shure SM58 even if we don't like the mic. Here's where the BS starts. If I am thrilled with the $1600 mic I need to come up with SQU that reflects my delight with the mic. Let's say 5, but obviously it could be anything.

Getting back to these MD441 -- I would hope they are at least twice as good sounding (SQU = 2 ) as the SM58 if I am going to spend seven times (MPU = 7) the value of an SM58.

Is this now perfectly clear?

The SQU breaks down on the "Any Given Sunday" principle. Putting aside cost or somewhat objective and agreed assesments of quality, in some application with a specific musician or a specific instrument (or maybe in a specific mix) you will find that one mic is the right mic. The stories are legion of some garden-variety Shure mic being the magic mic when excellent Neumanns, Telefunkens, et al., were available. (E.g.--the vocal mic on Lisa Germano's "Geek the Girl" is an SM-57, which is surprising on some of those tracks.) It's not just Shures, but those keep coming up. (A part of that is that performers have learned to work with them as the general issue equipment.)

Bear

I own quite a few of the mics mentioned. To my ears the Sennheiser 441 is the king of dynamic mics, and to quote an old mentor of mine "son if you don't know which microphone to use, use a 441 because every musician likes the sound of their instrument recorded with one". So far that has always worked for me.

The 431 is specifically tailored as a live voice/speech mic, and not really in the same ballpark of smoothness as the 441. The 421 has a bit more "character" (not as flat) and a broader pickup pattern. Bottom line, if you want a 441, buy a 441. If you want a pair of 441's, buy a pair of 441's. Nothing else sounds exactly the same regardless of whether they are assembled by old hippies or not. The modern ones don't sound identical to 70's mics, but would you expect them to? If you want the sound of a 441, a 441 is needed. Personally I don't know yet of a modern mic that sounds exactly the same as a vintage model, but I am very happy to be wrong :=)

nice post, Boffin....and welcome!

Thanks Audio, I had been operating under the illusion that the 431 might have some of the 441's Mojo, or magical power -- perhaps even stretching it (without inside knowledge) one might hypothesize that the diaphragm would be similar; just better venting and suspension in the 441.

Ultimately I would worry about dropping the 441, but I'm sure a good roll of 3M or generic duct tape would fit that...see The Red Green television show for more details.

And welcome to our little community.

welcome Audioboffin: )~

The Red Green television show is a favorite here: )~