Hi folks,

I'm looking to create a cheap yet brilliant stereo recording rig starting at the receiving end:

1. A windows compatible laptop with 1 firewire connection and 4 USB connections...HP something with AMD Turion.

2. A combo unit possibly an Apogee mini something or Fireface 400 -- something with micpre and ADC and the computer connection. The exact unit here is a big question mark???

3. Possibly a standalone mic preamp such as the DAV BG1 (English) or some similar American kit like the really nice preamp (made in Texas) -- Mother England versus Yankee (or is it Texas) knowhow.

4. A pair of decent condenser mics: at the low end KM184 Neumanns, at the high end perhaps the DPA mics, perhaps Texan or New Hampshire mics.


Is there a weak link in this stuff? Do I need to find a better computer interface? I suspect the English mic preamp is quite good, but I have no experience with this Apology (Apogee) gear -- is it any good? Is there a builder with a groovy little black box, not too costly, that would provide the AD DA conversion? Or does this job fall on this group of music store brands: Fireface, Presonus, Apogee, Tascam? Or at the extreme, the studio stuff by Lavry and Millenia?

I currently have three ways of getting sound into my laptop: the built in mikes (sweet), using my Beachtek black box on my Panasonic MiniDV and going in with the Firewire cable, and finally a Lavry PRS -2 which connects dynamic mikes to the laptop via a USB connection.

Too much background, but this black box will have to beat the camcorder -- I can potentially use condenser mikes with the English preamp (BG1) or another pimped up Beachtek unit...and avoid the Apogee box, or defer it --

I'm only looking for 2 channels. What's the best interface -- any out there with your philosophy? cheap yet brilliant.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks....

For the location thing... the standard on the Mac seems to be the Metric Halo stuff except for the high end persnickery guys. However, you want to do a Windows notebook... Here, there's no standard.

It sounds as if you're looking for something reasonably priced. I'd probably say to get a Yamaha i88x and see if it'll do what you want. It comes in a 1U rack space. It features decent mic pres. It does have a defect in that it apparently does not include some sort of hardware stereo monitoring. To do a monitor mix, unless you don't mind hearing Channel 1 in one ear and Channel 2 in the other and so on then you'll need a tiny mixer.

If you're looking for stable, then go with the RME Fireface 400. If you don't like the pres, then add the DAV. I like the FMR RNP but it does possess a certain noise level that does no harm for pop music.

On the mics, you might want to add the Beyerdynamic MC930 to the list or one of the Schoeps models. If you're putting together a mobile rig, then you're going to want a pair of omnis as well. If you get the call to do pipe organ, then the cardioid mics won't cut it.

Thanks Steven, for the quick reply. I might be asking to reinvent the wheel, and hopefully my thread or post doesn't overlap with too much of the history on this forum.

This is what I expect to record:
- solo acoustic guitar, no overdubs
- acoustic guitar and voice, no singing or vocalizing at close range (not like the Doobie Brothers) more or less a folksong sound: work-songs, field hollers, acoustic blues, and twenty-first century laments.
- some spoken world stuff, as in monologues

I already have some capability, as in medium fidelity, with the Shure dynamic mics and a basic AD converter, but it looks like this studio gear can budget blossom to a shocking level, 2K for an Apogee AD/DA box, 1K for micpres, and 1-4K for a stereo pair.

Another part of the philosophy, to recreate the very natural sound, the open recording I made thirty years ago with a pair of Beyer Soundstar mikes plugged into a medium cost (Hitachi or Realistic) cassette deck. I had the mikes suspended from the ceiling of my bedroom -- very good jam session recordings; if only our drummer had a better instrument than an empty beer case. I'm against sticking mikes inside guitars, or having too many stands that rattle if you tap your feet.

Having said all that, I suppose I should surrender my Pesos to a local dealer and get some Fireface, Presonus, or Apogee box...you're saying there's no half decent (industry-secret) black box.

As for mixing and editing, I have downloaded some Aussie software that enables be to parse recordings into cuts, but I haven't explored this too deeply.

As an addendum to this note: it occurred to me that I could try connecting a pair of omnidirectional mikes such as the EV 635AB and avoid heaps of agony over mic preamps and analog converters. I'm under the impression you get better bass response with the omnis, that the Shure SM57 highs will be equivalent on paper to this popular EV omni.

Sorry for replying to my own last post -- please don't banish me to Siberia.

I was reading something in Mojo University... is the following black box about as good as you can do for $500 US or $569 CAN?

EMU 1616M Mobile

E-MU's new 1616M Laptop Digital Audio System is the most powerful and portable laptop audio system ever created, offering the same powerful DSP...

Then from here go with Texan mic-pre or DAV Broadhurst Garden 1 mic-pre?

On mics: the 635 is great for a very clean, clear and accurate midrange, but they aren't very full-frequency. Not much bass, and the highs roll off, too. However, sometimes it sounds more hi-fi than it is. Useful and cheap tool to have, even if it doesn't pan out generally for your aims.
Another thing to think about is measurement-style omni condensors, from lowly Behringer and Nady models (self-noise is the big problem with these), through Stapes/Avenson, to higher-end mics like T.H.E., Earthworks, and DPA. You might even try a pair of these with your Lavry rig with an outboard phantom-power supply. (Many condensors need much less in a mic pre than your typical dynamic mic does.)

Magical black boxes? None I'm aware of. You might look into Black Lion Audio's mods of cheap music-store-brand converters, some of which are highly regarded, but I couldn't say that this would be the way to go. Other than that, could look for a used high-end converter, I suppose--keep in mind that it isn't just the latest-and-greatest converter chip that matters, but also the analog circuitry, digital clock, and housekeeping circuitry, so a high-end one from a few years back that was built right might still beat a new mid-level box.

On a side note, how has the Lavry been to use? I've not heard of anyone actually using that box, which seemed like an interesting idea.

Bear

Thanks Bear. In some ways I think the Lavry PRS unit is all you need, and that I'm shooting myself in the foot to go to that higher quality digital grail.

The Lavry box plugs into a USB port -- great I've got four of them. You are warned to plug all the mikes and the USB in place before turning on the power, and not to pull any plugs -- as Ali G says: respect! I say, caution! but I haven't screwed it up yet.

The sound is pretty good...you have to watch the volume levels so it doesn't clip, and I'm fairly certain that it doesn't degrade the signal supplied by my SM57 pair. When playing and singing, I don't jam the mike down the sound hole -- I figure a half-decent CNC milled Collings or Santa Cruz should be able to project at least two feet...sorry for being a contrary musician; I try not to put holes in my guitars. Oh yeah, the software has a switch from MP3 to WAV sampling rates...but you need to go to downloaded software to convert from WAV to MP3.

The philosophy behind the Lavry PRS mini-studio is great. Now if only some wizard would create an affordable ADDA box so that I could connect a micpre to my laptop.

By the way, not too many Lavry PRS units have been shipped. My serial number is in the sixties.

PROBLEM SOLVED. My resolution to my digital recording worries included two items:

First, to actually burn some CDs from the WAV files generated from my Lavry PRS 2. These are great -- really good when played through a proper stereo set. In my case, if you must know, there's a Rega Jupiter CD player, with a separate unit for DA conversion (in those they proudly separated the function of spinning a platter from converting signals, cause they cared)...so the result, is now less cognitive dissonance that I may have bought the wrong unit.

Second, a bit of retail therapy to celebrate: a pair of EV RE 20s, to give an alternate take. The internal preamp on the Lavry PRS 2 is actually very good if you're not laying down tracks, or whatever it is that recording engineers do. The unit has enough gain to enable SM57s to clip...and they say that the RE 20 requires about the same gain.

Again, I should mention the application. I'm not doing ancient chamber music, or recording a choir. I just want to sing and play the guitar into a fairly good recording rig...this gear does the job -- perhaps at the expense of learning recording technology at a deep level...but it's been said that too much involvement of the musician in the recording process, other than playing, saps your energy, takes it away from the performance.

Am I able to set a workable recording level, rig up a decent stereo image? Yeah, I can do that, and with some savings in electronics I might go for a groovy new boom stand that will match my new pair of heavy EV RE20s: how about a Latch Lake MicKing, the perfect rig for a live RadioShow deal -- of course with loads of respect or homage to The Prairie Home Companion, or Canada's Vinyl Cafe.

HERE IS THE REVIEW OF THE Mini PRS 2 that I have also posted on the Lavry Engineering Forum....Again, it's an informal review...I'm not Consumers Report.


This is a completely subjective review of the Mini-PRS 2. No test equipment was used, no comparison was made between the sound quality of this unit versus another -- but of course you'd have to define the product space and objectively compare what you get and don't get with the various alternatives. That's for specialty magazines and websites -- I'm only interested in this product so that I can make stereo recordings and hear how well I'm playing...the old deal with don't quit your day job.

I'll start by telling you the story of how I discovered and ultimately acquired this little gem of a silver box.

Imagine a typical winter day in Montreal -- the street parking is hampered by deep snow banks waiting for a snowblower. You go into this store with the idea of costing out a rig, a good recording rig, and you find out if you want quality, enough to fly off to the moon, it's very expensive: some items like preamps are 3K per channel...but then there's this Lavry Blue stuff, still expensive but I suppose the cost is justified if you need it...as in you've quit your day job and you're self-producing an album.

I have fond memories of live recordings made with Realistic Cassette Deck, made by Hitachi (about 250) and a pair of Beyer Soundstar microphones, fixed using a stereo rail. The live sound of this rig was great -- I would turn the Dolby off and fix the levels so the tape was properly saturated even during boisterous jam sessions.

So after poking around reviews and various internet bailiwicks I took a chance on this Mini-PRS, and of course after you buy it you think more closely of the alternatives -- what a marketing professor calls the cognitive dissonance of a consumer's experience with a product. But the selling point: after playing with volume levels and sampling rates (what else can you mess with?) you get a very realistic sounding CD recording with 'mere' stage quality dynamic mics. For guitar and voice it's brilliant -- my approach is to use the XY pattern...and to stay about one to two feet away from the pair...

Sadly there's a gap between dreams and reality. I won't be able to do a Blumlien pair with a couple of SM57s; but my recording rig won't include expensive condenser mics. Mobility and peace of mind: I can put it all into a rucksack -- Now, If only the pause button on the Mini PRS had that mechnical sound of my good old cassette deck. And more than the pause: clunking down record and play and just let the tape run...ah lovely.

But as I've said in another thread -- it is stunning or shocking how good the sound quality is in the CDs generated from the file; obviously there must be some limit as to the digital to analog conversion in my laptop, and one inch built-in Altec Lansings are no match to a proper stereo playback.

The Digital Virgin drove into the big city and picked up a pair of EV 635 A/B mics, the AntiChrist of what a condescending music store employee would normally sell to their customers, but of course most customers go to music stores with an idea of what they want, and they consider, or give a bit more weight the salesman's suggestions of how to fill it. You buy this product from a large Music Store in Ottawa, and you get this vibe: 'whatever', 'if that's what you want to do', it's not what we'd recommend...

Enough of this rant: these little babies have a nice sound; perhaps they lack the sibilance of the SM57, but you can make all manner of vocal noises (I mean howls, grunts, and clicking sounds) without any ill effect. Also, thanks to that roll-off, an acoustic guitar sounds almost like an electric. Arguably, it's not the first pick, but I've never owned an omni mic before. Also, I'm going to have a go at hooking up the mics to my firewire compatible MiniDV camcorder (equipped with a BeachTek micpre).

Those 635s seem to match the Japanese old style film cameras for that take me out of the box and use me feeling. One of folks at the store, not the condescending salesman, said the 635s were Bob Barker mics -- well, I suppose, well said!

A sample of the EV 635s plus the Lavry Mini PRS, a fairly expensive guitar....


http://jacquestadoussac.mypodcast.com/2007...Song-11104.html

You see, I like that - it's not typical, but it's a very charming sound. Sounds like a 78 rpm record - the Anthology of American Folk Music or other field recordings. Pure but band-limited. That's what I like about that mic - sounds better than doing that stuff with eq.

Oh, and maybe not Bob, but the 635a has been the standard TV/radio reporter's mic for ages. Omni means no wind noise (very good for field recording), and the things are nigh indestructable.

Bear

Part of this gear acquisition project has be to acquire gear even if it goes against the grain of conventional wisdom. That's why I get out of joint explaining my application or ideas to music store dudes -- I think I've explained it to death, but they're aghast that I haven't bought an Apogee or Fire Something, or Chinese mics -- I'm determined to get a year of service out if that Lavry toy, even if it means going for a middle ground of dynamic mics; and honestly, I should put more effort into improving my musical performance than in fiddling with high-end equipment.

It's fun to note that we have a strange tale of two cities, Montreal and Ottawa, two levels of toy stores to buy mics and recording gear. When I explain my gear needs to the Steve's Music staff in Montreal, I get a much warmer response, as in not every customer is looking for a cookie cutter solution (multi-tracking and condenser mics). My favorite toys in Montreal are in a sales and rental outlet, chock a block with Neumann, API, AKG, and all the nice stuff: economik.com

Thanks Bear for your input. You're absolutely right that I've been influenced by that folkloric stuff. In Canada, we had a famous university prof and anthropologist Marius Barbeau collect songs on the north shore of the St Lawrence, from both French and English folks, and collect heaps of historical records (waxed cyclinders)...Of course, using 635s with an MP3 file is a good simulation of those tried and true ways.

Bear, I like that philosophy: pick your mic and let that selection determine the equalization -- I guess as opposed to twiddling knobs, or running recordings through compression and equalization after the fact. This compression stuff doesn't seem right to my ears -- I hear so many compressed commercials on the tely, even if I can acquire a compressor for $250, is it really mandatory? I know that for $2000 I can get a Rossetta, another $1000 a proper mic pre by DAV in England, and another $1000 a pair AKG 451s...that stuff would provide a fantastic acoustic sound but in the end if you want a combined voice, vocal and guitar mic for stereo recording, I think it's pretty good right now.

I like the vibe. Your sound is pretty good right now. You've got a sound. You need to refine your technique with experimentation and practice.

The following experimental recording was made with a pair of 635 a/b going into a BeachTek EZ Adapter 'micpre' (set fairly high volume) and an eight year old Panasonic EZ30 Camera. I ended up using a somewhat compressed setting for the video sent to the Google farm -- but I think the audio quality isn't too bad: I don't hear heaps of noise, and I didn't hear any any red-lining or maxing out of the audio. There's another posted video on Google under the title "Bless The Child", done in late 99, but I think the volume settings were too loud -- it took 6 hours to upload ten minutes of AVI formatted material, and ultimately, I think you get a better blended sound with voice and acoustic guitar as compared to voice and electric.



Last night:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=19...512454172&hl=en



November 1999:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...492493902&hl=en



A model to follow. A proper studio recording by the late Rick Danko:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEbznWv6Jko